SPEAKER_00: 0:44

Welcome, welcome. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another Beauty of Breathing episode. We are at this time also going live on Instagram. If you guys uh are not aware, we actually record all of these um live. So if you'd like to follow the next uh talks we have, they're usually happen on Tuesdays at noon, and we go live on the Mayo Moves account Instagram. Today I have a very special guest with us today, presenting Dr. Debbie Silver, the founder of C uh and CEO of the Post-Betrayal Transformation PBT Institute and National Forgiveness Day. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited for this. She's an award-winning speaker, two-time number one international best-selling author, and host of the top-ranked podcast from Betrayal to Breakthrough. Top 1.5% globally. That's incredible. A groundbreaking PhD research uncovered three discoveries that reshaped the understanding of betrayal and healing on a physical, mental, and emotional level. Through the world's leading betrayal recovery certification, Dr. Debbie equips coaches and practitioners worldwide with an evidence-based framework for lessing transformative change. Today's topic is how an unhealed betrayal is impacting your health, work, and relationships and what to do about it with Dr. Debbie Silber. Thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_01: 2:16

Looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 2:18

Yes. First of all, tell us a little bit about you. How did you come to find this work on uh betrayal and forgiveness? You don't think I just like the topic of betrayal?

SPEAKER_01: 2:32

No, you said it because you have to. I'm actually in business 34 years, health, mindset, personal development. Then I had a really painful betrayal from my family. Thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband. Blindsided, devastated, brokenhearted. You know, anybody who's been through it, you know. And um, and and I didn't know how to get myself out of this mess. Usually I would go to books or courses or programs, and there really wasn't anything. And I had four kids and six dogs in a business, and I just couldn't afford to stay stuck. So I found myself enrolling in a PhD program. Maybe not what everyone would do after getting betrayed. Yeah. But I felt like this was so big, I had to study it so big. And um, and then I did a study and I studied betrayal, honestly, just to help me heal so I'd be better for my kids, my clients. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

SPEAKER_00: 3:32

Wow, that's incredible. And it's something that we all deal with. Is there a certain age uh that usually people have the trauma happens that will later impact them in life?

SPEAKER_01: 3:47

You know, it's such a great question because it's not, it's not really the age. It's what we see consistently, though, is an unhealed betrayal, repeat betrayal is a classic sign of an unhealed betrayal. So you could have had a betrayal when you were a little kid. Maybe your parent did something awful. Maybe, you know, a partner broke your heart in high school. And, you know, then then it's not that these relationships are good, they're just so familiar. So you have friends that could betray, or you have romantic partners that can betray, you have workplace situations, and it's these show up to show you there's a there's a profound lesson waiting to be learned. And until and unless you get that, you're gonna have opportunities, you know, in the form of people to teach you.

SPEAKER_00: 4:30

And it's just happening over and over and over until you learn.

SPEAKER_01: 4:34

Once you learn, you're good.

SPEAKER_00: 4:36

So, how do you know when you're finally healed for that specific yeah?

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

That was really part of the third discovery. What how to know if you have completely healed? And I'm happy to get into all of them, all the discoveries. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:51

Let's start with the first.

SPEAKER_01: 4:52

All right, let's start with the first one. So, you know, I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. I'd been through death of a loved one, I'd been through disease, and I was like, betrayal feels different, but I didn't want to assume it was the same for everyone in my study. So I asked him, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, is it different for you? Every single person said it is so different. And here's why: because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally. So the entire self gets shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, they're shattered. Like when you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the lost life will never be the same. But you don't go back and question the relationship, right? You don't question your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity. With betrayal, you do. So that betrayal is a very different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal. That was the first discovery.

SPEAKER_00: 5:46

Wow. And where should people be going to find this help? Because most of the time we don't even realize that we need help.

SPEAKER_01: 5:56

You know, people this is the thing. People don't know what to do. So the typical things they do is they numb, avoid, and distract themselves. You know, they'll run to the doctor who puts them on a mood stabilizer, anti-anxiety medication, or they'll just drink, numb, emotionally eat. Doesn't help. Or they'll join some kind of lame support group and you will actually sabotage your healing because you found your people. Yeah. The other thing we do is we'll go to therapy, well-meaning, loving therapists, but they're not highly skilled in betrayal. And it actually reinforces your spot in the most stuck place. So what you need to do is learn about the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough. That was my third discovery. And then work with a certified PBT coach or practitioner to help move you through them, or at least learn what the five stages are so you can move through them. And I'm happy to share them as well.

SPEAKER_00: 6:49

Yes, perfect. So you did discover discover three major findings in your research on betrayal. Yeah. Can you share what they are and why they're so important to healing?

SPEAKER_01: 6:59

Yeah. So the first one was that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal. So if you're just treating it like someone's like, oh, trauma's trauma, and they're just treating it just like trauma, regular other types of trauma, you will not heal. These are well-meaning therapists and counselors, but because of the nature of betrayal, it needs a different way to heal. I mean, that's the message we're trying to get out because, you know, think about it also, trust is shattered, completely and totally shattered. So from the people that you love the most and love you back. The ones that gave you a sense of safety and security, and that's the one who took it away. The ones you run to when other people are causing the trauma is the one causing the trauma. So, what a lot of coaches and counselors and therapists will say is okay, let's start small. Let's learn how to trust with something that, you know, isn't so big. That's the last place you need to go because self-trust was completely shattered. We don't even trust in our ability to make decisions anymore because in our minds, we gave our trust to this person. Like so, our way of deciding if someone is trustworthy or not is we look at it as fundamentally flawed. So, how do we trust someone else? We don't even trust our ability to know what's right or wrong. You see?

SPEAKER_00: 8:19

Yeah, go ahead. What is the responsibility of the person who created the betrayal to help that person heal?

SPEAKER_01: 8:29

You know, it it when it comes to healing, that has so much to do with the betrayed, when it comes to rebuilding a different relationship, that has so much to do with the betrayer. And you will learn, you know, betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It can also wake them up to who they temporarily became. There's a lot to work with when that's the case. Um, and they have they have so much work. The betrayer has to become someone they're proud of, number one. And here, I'm gonna give you an example in an analogy, ready? Okay. Imagine a brick wall. The only way I know of a brick wall being built is brick by brick by brick. Every opportunity, you know, it's like to show that you're trustworthy, one brick in that brick wall, right? Now imagine, so it's years later, the person who built the brick wall shatters the whole thing. Now the other person can look and say, that's just a mess. I don't want to clean that up. Goodbye. And that's totally fine, right? However, if the person whose trust was shattered, if they're willing to watch that brick wall be rebuilt, that would be their job. The person who shattered it has to be a really good bricklayer. And it goes back the only way it went up the first time, brick by brick by brick. But here's what I see the brick wall is built, the betrayer shatters it. They don't really have much of an interest in rebuilding it. So the betrayed says, Fine, I'll do it. No, that's why they always are hyper-vigilant, that's why they never feel safe. It's not their job to rebuild. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 10:04

It does make sense because the betrayer, I feel like a lot of times they already went through the healing process.

SPEAKER_01: 10:10

Well, a lot of times, yeah, and a lot of times they have. Like what happens is they have shattered the heart and trust of the person they love the most and the person that loves them the most, they've learned their biggest lessons off of trampling on the other person's heart. So, and I used to work with a lot of betrayers and I would tell them, listen, I am so glad for your healing, but you have to understand you learn that at the expense of the person you did that to. So you have to be very careful about that dance of letting that person know how different you are and still being there with them. Not like, like, imagine the person who's betrayed is like down in a trench somewhere. You can't go looking down, like, hey, come on, you know, you're doing okay. You have to go down there, pick them up, and lift them up and out.

SPEAKER_00: 10:57

Oh, that's powerful, right there. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 11:02

Yeah. So anyway, you want me to get to the second discovery? Please. All right. So the second one was that there's actually a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. So we've tested over a hundred thousand people to see to what extent they're struggling. And um, you know, a few things about that. I'm happy to share the stats. First, we've all heard time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true.

SPEAKER_02: 11:30

It's not true.

SPEAKER_01: 11:32

No, there's a question on the assessment that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? People write things like, My betrayal happened 35 years ago, I will never trust again.

SPEAKER_00: 11:40

Yes, it's crazy. And I I mean, I have been through, of course, we all have been through things, but I have had some, you know, very important people in my life that have created these betrayals, and I have been the betrayer at times. Um, so it's very interesting to see from both sides. And that's always my question. Like, what was my responsibility on both instances? What do I have to do to heal myself? And what do I have to do to help the other person heal?

SPEAKER_01: 12:10

Yeah, it's such it's such a beautiful question. And what's so great is that's how you know when people say, once a cheater, always a cheater. People don't change. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. You're living proof, right? And and it's when you realize the damage and the devastation you've caused, then you say, you know what? That that was who I was. Yeah. And now I'm gonna become the highest and best version of me. And when that version meets up with the healed version of the betrayed, it's an incredibly powerful couple. Like here, I'm gonna show you something, you'll never forget this, ready. This is what typically happens. You see my hands? Okay. So imagine here you are and you're and then you're betrayed, and you're so brokenhearted, and you're so upset, and it's so terrible, and you hate this feeling. So you just want it to go away. So you go back with this person or back with someone new, and you constantly do this, but nothing's really changing, right? As you heal, and by heal, I mean moving through the five stages, which I'll get through. Okay. As you heal, you start doing this. But if you're so committed to this person, you're gonna keep sabotaging yourself because you're like, ah, right, but you like it here. And then you're gonna be like, well, why can't they do this? Well, that's not what you signed up for, you know. So you're gonna do this, you're gonna keep sabotaging yourself, and but you like it here. Now, this person, if you're committed to doing this and you're not sinking down here again, if you're committed to staying here, this person can say, I better step up my game to meet the strength of this person. Now that's a 2.0 relationship, it's a whole different thing. But either way, when you're committed to your healing without having to settle, because now you settle when you do this. This can't help but show up. It can't, because this is who you are. You see? Because if you do this, but you're so committed to this person, you get this. You're like, Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:00

That is so interesting. I love that explanation.

SPEAKER_01: 14:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:04

So that was two.

SPEAKER_01: 14:06

So that's so the second is the the symptoms. Do you want to hear the symptoms? I'm happy to share.

SPEAKER_00: 14:10

I do because this, I think, goes a little bit into the work that I do. Um, if a heel betrayal actually affects the body and physical health.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

Oh, yeah, you will see it. Now, so imagine over a hundred thousand people, men, women, just about every country's represented. Ready? And as much as you'll hear these symptoms, hear these numbers. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. Think about what a loss of personal power, what will that do to the decisions you make? What you'll go along with, what you'll settle for, right? Um, 80% are hypervigilant. That's exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers. If you've ever had a trigger, you know how bad they are. Uh, some of the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues.

SPEAKER_00: 15:03

Oh, look at that, everybody. So that's what we do here. We help people sleep better. Yeah. This is why I really wanted to bring you in this this podcast, because of course we're all as healthcare professionals trained into looking into all of what we know. So, as a myofunctional therapist, I'm looking at breathing, I'm looking at sleep, I'm looking at tongue position. Are they breathing through their nose? Are they getting enough oxygen? However, look how much more can be involved in somebody's ability to get good sleep, to get really good. And we're looking at Airway. It's not just the the structural issues, uh, emotional count so much. And I want to keep shining the light into this. So sleep issues.

SPEAKER_01: 15:48

Yeah, and I love that you're bringing that up because you know, I certify a lot of coaches and practitioners, and it's so powerful when I certify, let's say, a gut expert who's amazing at what they do, but like 45% of everybody betrayed has a gut issue. So now imagine that gut expert with these beautiful protocols, understanding that betrayal is is where they originated, you know, and now they know how to truly serve that client. Like here's an example, just a brief story. We had a woman in our program in her mid 80s, and she had a 70 plus year digestive issue from a family betrayal. She was adopted, they didn't tell her it was like that kind of thing. So for 70 plus years, the the protocols, the food, the meds, the doctors, the everything. Two weeks into our program, she healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue. Wow. That's what happens when you deal with the root cause. Yeah, because everything is stemming from that. Like, here's the betrayal, and then because of it, weight issues, digestive issues, you know, immune issues, sleep issues, like all of it. And then we wind up taking care of all these things. But meanwhile, the root cause was the betrayal. So, anyway. Um that's amazing. Thank you, I cut you off while you stopped at the sleep. What else was the last one? Yeah, another one, extreme fatigue, 63%. So you sleep all night, you're exhausted, your adrenal subtanked. Um, 47% have weight changes. I said digestive issues, the mental symptoms, 78% are overwhelmed, 62% can't concentrate. So imagine like you can't concentrate, you're exhausted, you still have to take your kids to school, and you still have to work if right? And that's that's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness, 83% are very angry, um, 80%, let's see, 80% have anxiety, 79% are stressed. That's not even um this one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. Like, think of what an inability to trust would do in our daily lives. And this one, 67% prevented themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. Wow. 82. So you keep the bad ones out, but you're keeping the good ones out too. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

SPEAKER_00: 18:10

Wow. And the the extreme fatigue really makes me think of the amount of energy that it takes your body to deal with this anchor. I feel like it's just an anchor inside your soul, holding it down from being able to reach your full potential in life.

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

Yeah. The good news is, right? It's crazy. The good news is you can heal from all of it. That was the third discovery. That's beautiful. All right, tell us about the third one. Yeah. So the third one was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and most people do, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms I just shared, and I only shared a fraction of them, to this completely rebuilt place where you build, rebuild your life and yourself. You're gonna move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we now know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. And we know what we need to do to move from one stage to the next. Healing's entirely predictable.

SPEAKER_00: 19:12

Wow, that is incredible. Let's go through the five.

SPEAKER_01: 19:16

Yeah. So stage one, uh, this is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being, right? So it's easy for a table. Like, imagine if the table only had two legs, easy for that table to topple over that's us. And this is the kind of thing, you know, where we get so angry at ourselves. How did I not see? How did I not know? You were you were doing life, you weren't scanning for betrayal. You were you were trusting. So it's it's not a fault. That's that's what we do in relationships. But in hindsight, we can see a lot of this clearly, right? Stage two, shock, trauma, D-Day. This is the scariest stage. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind, the worldview. So, right here, you've ignited the stress response. You're now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelming. You cannot understand what you just learned, and your worldview has just been shattered. That's your mental model. Trust this person, these are the rules. This is how life works, right? And in one earth-shattering moment, every rule you've been counting on is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out, and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying. Right? But think about it, and everybody remembers their DJ. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything or anyone to stay alive and stay safe. That's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this? Who can I trust? Here's the trap, though. This is the stage everybody gets stuck in. And here's why. You will hear so many people, you're gonna think of so many people you know right here. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma you just came from, you think it's good. Wow. And because you don't know there's anywhere else to go, you don't know there's a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four. But because you don't know there's anywhere else to go, you plant roots here. You're not supposed to, but you do. And four things happen. You start first one, you start getting all the those secondary gains, those small self-benefits. You get your story, you get to be right, you get sympathy from everyone you turn your story to, right? And on some level, you're so miserable that you're like, okay, fine, you take it. So you plant deeper roots, and now because you're here for a little bit, now the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it. Maybe this, maybe that. So you play, yeah, and it has nothing to do with you, but you plant deeper roots, and now because these are the thoughts you're thinking, this is the energy you start putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now you're calling in situations and circumstances and new relationships to confirm, yep, this is where you belong. Like, here's where you're gonna join that lame support group. And you found your people, yeah, right. So you'll sabotage yourself. Here's where you're gonna go to therapy again. Beautiful, well meaning therapist. You're gonna feel heard and validated and understood, gluing yourself to stage three, right? Here's where You're also going to sabotage your healing because you're afraid to outgrow your betrayer.

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

Oh my gosh, talk about that a little bit. You're a yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:51

You know, this is one of these things that there's so much fear, and we don't know there's anything better. So we're like, let me just go with the familiar known. I remember someone coming to me and saying her her uh husband had been having affairs the 30 years of their marriage, and she he had no intention of stopping. And she said, Dr. Debbie, can you do something with my mind so it won't bother me? Wow. No, no, I can't. I'm not your person. No, but when people think like this is as good as it gets, and this is all I can hope for, yeah. You know, that's it's and it gets worse. I'll get you out of here though. Because it feels so bad, but you don't know there's anywhere else to go, right here. You start numbing. You start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, whatever. And think about it, you do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit, a year, 10 years, 20 years. I can see someone 20 years out and say, that emotional eating you're doing, that drinking, you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They look at me like I'm crazy. They'd say it happened 20 years ago. I'm over it. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So this is, and then in stage three, all you're doing is medicating and suppressing and numbing symptoms. It's more of the same. Here's where repeat betrayals happen because nothing has really changed, just time, right? Anyway, if you're willing, willingness is the big word right here, to let go of those small self-benefits, grieve more than the loss, bunch of things you need to do. You move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the damage that was going on in stages two and stage three.

SPEAKER_00: 24:46

Because every single time they keep reminiscing about it, they're just creating their body all the symptoms again. Over and over your brain doesn't know, right, if it's happening now or if it's happened 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01: 24:57

Exactly. So it's just a new day, same stuff. You're reliving the same thing over and over again. Um, and and that's why you're spending all that time medicating and suppressing, and nothing's really changing. But stage four, it's like if you ever moved to a new house office, condo, whatever, your stuff's not there, you know, it's not cozy, but you're like, got this. It's this like hopeful excitement. It feels like that. But think about it, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right? You don't take the things that don't represent who you're now ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people go from stage three to stage four, like that lame support group, you're done. That therapist who's keeping you stuck, you're done. You're done. And and again, people are like, is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing the transformation. And if they don't rise, they don't come along. Um, anyway, when you've settled into this space, you've made it cozy, you've made it kind of mentally home, you move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We couldn't do that earlier, you know. Now we can. Um, we have a new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now. And the four legs of that table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and mental. By this point, we're so solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

SPEAKER_00: 26:17

Oh my gosh. Everybody, do you guys write that down?

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

I need to like and I spoke so fast because I didn't know how much time we had to you.

SPEAKER_00: 26:27

It's incredible. And actually, we just had somebody on Instagram said, This is it, the exact moment I needed to hear about this topic. So, this is why on Beauty of Breathing will bring you guys way more just about tentis, mouth breathing, and sleep. We need to be able to look at the whole body, and this emotional and spiritual component is huge.

SPEAKER_02: 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:50

Um, because we have so many patients that come to us and like they're those patients that tried everything. Yeah, I've had Lyme disease, I've had mold exposure, and I have done a thousand treatments, nothing works. That's always the same thing, nothing works. Yes, and every single time I'm like, okay, because we're not addressing the deep down, either trauma or emotional thing that's happening, that's holding you stuck. You're not going to be able to heal unless you make the decision that you want to let that go and you want to heal. So many people I feel like um end up attaching to that pain and let letting that letting that pain define who they are. Yeah. I'm not sure if it does, you know, they get used to their uh dysfunctional, it's a good excuse without knowing, of course, is a subconscious. I think like, oh, this is just who I am, this is what's happened to me. Um, it's the familiar known.

SPEAKER_01: 27:49

And you know what it's like? It's like imagine there's this beautiful place you could swim to, right? And you go halfway out and you're like, ah, it's too far, and you swim back. And then you're like, let me try again. And then you go and you're like, it's too far, and you go back. And you you're doing that like 50 times. If you were to just keep going, you'd get to this beautiful space, but it's the unknown. So you're like, you know what? I know what's over there. Let me just keep going back for that. And it you I'm gonna give you another analogy because you this will hit home for so many people. Imagine there are two best friends, right? Two best friends, and they're both like 30 pounds overweight. So they look good, they put themselves together like it's not stopping them from doing anything. And one of them, and one of them is like, you know, uh, well, you know what? I'm so done with this, I'm gonna lose the weight, and I'm just gonna, I'm so done. So she she starts eating well and exercising and does all the things. And she's feeling good, she's wearing clothes, she's choosing not just versus what fits, right? And and she has all this energy and she's like, come on, do this with me. And the other one's like, No, no, no, I'm okay. The truth is she is, right? If she had any idea, if she had any idea what that felt like, she wouldn't waste her time in that space for a minute. But because she's okay, she stays. It's like stage three, you've built a functional life, but it's behind walls. You're surviving, you're not thriving. It's there's like this flatness to it. You're moving through your day, but it's like you didn't go through something that hard just to survive.

SPEAKER_00: 29:20

Question. Yeah. Do they all of a sudden? So those two friends that one of them decided to get out of that of that frequency of what was going on there.

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

Person that decides to stay because they feel like that's familiar and that's okay with them. Do they all of a sudden feel betrayed because that person is no longer in the same level that they are?

SPEAKER_01: 29:41

They definitely can. And then what happens is they could feel uh envious, they could feel jealous, they could feel like, oh, look at look at her, you know, or they could say, you know what? I better step it up. And what would life be like here? And then let them know, oh, you know what? I don't really like it. I like it in this low place. Never, you know. But it but that definitely, if someone isn't ready for something, they're gonna be looking at that person, blaming, shaming, making it all about them. When meanwhile, they just don't want to step it up. And that's okay. Maybe just because it was this person's time doesn't mean it's this person's time, right? Everybody's timing is is different. But whether it's friends, it's relationships, it's co-workers, it's whatever, when this person decides to move, when they truly live in this stage five space, they're different in every single way. Their relationships, their health, their confidence, new businesses, new passion projects, because they have deliberately and intentionally recreated themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 30:48

Improved all the four legs of the table. It's not just one. It was not just physical, it's emotional, spiritual. That's it. I love it. That is incredible. Um, what other ways uh does unprocessed betrayal tend to impact the future relationships?

SPEAKER_01: 31:05

Yeah. Well, think about it. If if it's not rebuilt, if you're only in stage three, that's all you have access to. So if trust isn't rebuilt, you're gonna bring, let's say you're in a new relationship, it's gonna be so natural not to trust, right? And then very likely you'll sabotage that relationship because you know you're coming into it hyper-vigilant and all the things. Um, and and so, or even like let's say, let's say I'll show you in different ways in health, right? You could go to the most well-meaning, amazing, you know, doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. But at the root of it, if there's an unhealed betrayal that's not being looked at or attended to, you're just hacking away at those symptoms, right? That I showed before in work. Let's say you just your confidence was shattered. So let's say you deserve a razor promotion. You're you don't have the confidence to ask. So you're bitter, resentful instead, or you want to be a team player, collaborative partner, but the person you trusted the most proved untrustworthy. Like, how do I trust that boss, that coworker, that partner? It affects everything. Everything.

SPEAKER_00: 32:11

Are there some common patterns that you can share or symptoms you see the signal someone is stuck in betrayal trauma without even realizing it?

SPEAKER_01: 32:20

Yeah, if they're dummy avoiding, distracting. Okay. That is one of the most common things. If they're in a repeat experience, if they're medicating and suppressing symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, they're stuck. And if they can resonate with anything I said about stage three, if they're like, oh shoot, that's me. Who are the most common betrayers? Um, it really, it really varies. You know, it's men, it's women. Um, it's it's it doesn't just decide, you know, based on luck or gender or anything. No, uh, but it's really whether it is because of unhealed trauma or entitlement or lack of whatever, scarcity, whatever the issue is, not I just want to be so clear. Never for one second is it the betrayed's fault. Ever, ever. And what I even see is very often the betrayed will make an excuse for the betrayer. Oh, they've had trauma. Oh, they've had okay, well, so have you.

SPEAKER_00: 33:20

Did you I was going to ask that if the betrayed person or the the betrayer betrayed because they're also unhealed or fallen like patterns.

SPEAKER_01: 33:34

Yeah. Well, and but think about it, it and and I just want to be so super clear too. People say, Oh, it's a mistake. No, it's not, it's a choice. It's a choice, right? It is, it's a really painful one, but it's a choice. And there are so many reasons, and this is why the betrayer has a big job to do, because they have to heal whatever led them to make those choices. And if they're given the golden opportunity of rebuilding with the betrayed, they have to be there for that person as well. So they have a lot of work ahead of them.

SPEAKER_00: 34:04

But I I don't think that the betrayer betrayed that specific person, trying to be mean to that specific person. I don't think it had anything to do with that.

SPEAKER_01: 34:15

It has nothing to do with that person, it had to do with themselves, you know? 100%. It has so much to do with themselves, even and this is something for the betrayed, even though it happened to you, it's not about you. It's really not. It's really not. But when let's say someone chooses drugs, you don't take it personally, you choose alcohol, it hurts, but you don't take it personally. When they choose another, you take it personally.

SPEAKER_00: 34:43

Wow. Let's see. Uh, you talk about transformation, not just the recovery. What is the difference between the two? That was four and five, right?

SPEAKER_01: 34:52

Yeah. So, you know, I'll give you another analogy. Um, and I I did two TEDx talks. This one, it's in one of them. I talk about the house. Again, you'll see it so clearly. So imagine, here's the difference between resilience and transformation. Imagine an old house, and let's say the house needs a new roof. You get a new roof. That would be resilience. You're you're restoring it, bringing it back to what it was. Or let's say it needs a new paint job and you paint. That's resilience. You're bringing it back to what it was. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels the house. A new roof's not fixing it, and a new paint job's not fixing it, right? Now you have every right to stare at the lot where your house once stood and say, This is the most terrible thing that's ever happened. You'd be right. And you can call over all your friends and say, Isn't this horrible? They'd all agree. And you can mourn the loss of your house until your last breath, no one could fault you for it. However, if you choose to rebuild the house, you don't have to. Why would you build the same one? Yeah. There's nothing there, right? Why not make it so much better, so much more beautiful? That's the opportunity. And that's trauma well served.

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

I love that. What does your post-betray transformation framework offer the traditional approaches may be missing?

SPEAKER_01: 36:07

Well, this is research-based, it's proven it's predictable. You know, so I we all I do in our certification program is certify coaches and therapists and psychologists and counselors through in the five stages so that when they're sitting with someone and they know they have great tools and resources and all things, the wrong tool at the wrong stage is going to keep the client stuck. So they know to use their great stuff according to what stage that client is in. So all we do is move people through the five stages.

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

And for someone listening who recognizes themselves in this conversation, what are the first practical steps they can take toward healing?

SPEAKER_01: 36:51

Yeah, I mean, you you can move through the stages by yourself, know what stage you're in, know that you can move through the stages. Or we just actually started a wait list. And I started a oh, I started a wait list so that I can, we have such demand for really good uh certified PBT coaches and practitioners. So I'm starting a wait list so that these people can have first crack at the newest coaches and practitioners that are certified. So if they want to join the wait list, that's exactly what that's for.

SPEAKER_00: 37:22

Ashley said such an important topic. Thank you for hosting Renata. Dr. Silber, appreciate you sharing solutions to heal and change lives. Thank you. Okay, guys. Uh, last question: what gives you the most hope when you see people move from betrayal to breakthrough? What was the question? What gives you the most hope when you see people move from betrayal to breakthrough?

SPEAKER_01: 37:45

Just how what not only that they're getting such a better version of their lives back, I see how it impacts their families. I see how it impacts work, I see how it impacts future relationships. And it's so beautiful because that person who's sick and sad and stuck, they're not, they can't, they can't be there for their kids in the way they want to. They can't show up for themselves the way they want to. But the version of them, that stage four, stage five version, who is so strong and confident and healthy and healed and happy, I mean, what they do, who they show up as, what they become, how their families are because of it. And I hear it every day from clients that I've worked with, from you know, the coaches and practitioners I've certified, their people, like their clients, it's it's beautiful, beautiful to see them really transforming lives.

SPEAKER_00: 38:42

And do you offer a directory of those professionals who are trained?

SPEAKER_01: 38:46

We're working on it. Yeah, we're working on that now. We're getting the directory going. But that's why, in the meantime, as I'm certifying uh the coaches and practitioners, getting that wait list going so we could just match them up with the people who can help them. And of course, I worked with just a few at the highest level. I matched them up with me along with our program and some of our coaches and practitioners.

SPEAKER_00: 39:07

Amazing. Well, you do you mind sharing every with everyone your website and your Instagram so people can find you?

SPEAKER_01: 39:12

Oh, thank you. So it's the PBT as in post-betrayal transformation, the PBTinstitute.com. And then Instagram is Debbie Silber, D-E-B-I, Silverba with a B. S-I-L-G-like boy, you are.

SPEAKER_00: 39:26

Perfect. Well, this was so valuable. I know that so many of our patients and clients uh are dealing with this. This is just something that is normal to human living. We're all gonna uh be faced with challenges throughout our life, and speaking to incredible professionals like you really help uh, you know, uh empower these patients to be looking at what else could be um blocking their healing and holding their healing back. So thank you so much for spending this time with us, for sharing so much. And we hope to hear more from you soon. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you.