The Beauty of Breathing by Airway Circle

47. Form Follows Function with Dr. Maryana Gayduk

Renata Nehme, RDH, BSDH, COM® Season 1 Episode 4

When Dr. Mariana Gayduk noticed her grandson's struggles with mouth breathing, it struck a chord with her own past. As she joins us on the show, we get an intimate look at how these personal experiences fuel her passion for myofunctional therapy and holistic dental care. With over a quarter-century of dentistry under her belt, Dr. Gayduk unveils the complex weave of dental health, posture, speech, and overall well-being, teaching us that the mouth is more than just a gateway to our stomachs—it's a pivotal component of our health matrix.

Have you ever considered the profound impact of orofacial muscle function on your life? We spend this episode unpacking the often overlooked importance of myofunctional therapy in correcting dysfunctional breathing, chewing, and swallowing habits. With expert insight, Dr. Gayduk and I dissect the value of specialized training for dental and speech professionals, the collaborative dance between various medical disciplines, and the essential role of patient participation. This conversation is a wake-up call, highlighting the desperate need for early intervention and the synergy required for truly comprehensive care.

As we wrap up, we delve into the complexities of facial development and the limitations of myofunctional therapy when skeletal changes are at stake. Dr. Gayduk shares her wisdom on innovative interventions like RPE and MARPE and reflects on the interplay between structure and function in our faces. We leave you with a genuine thank you for joining us on this journey, encouraging you to carry the torch of awareness for this transformative therapy. Goodbye for now, but remember, the healthiest conversations often start with a smile.

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ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Maryana Gayduk is a dedicated endodontist with a passion for dental health and preventive medicine. With years of experience in endodontics, she has honed her skills in diagnosing and treating issues related to the dental pulp and root canals with precision and care.

Follow her on Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/maryanna_dental

Support the show

ABOUT OUR HOST:

Renata Nehme RDH, BSDH, COM® has been a Registered Dental Hygienist since 2010. In 2016, when she was introduced to the world of "Myofunctional Therapy" she immediately knew that was her calling, especially when she learned that it encapsulated many of her passions- breastfeeding, the import of early childhood development, and airway health.

In 2021 Renata founded Airway Circle with the intention of creating a collaborative and multidisciplinary group of like-minded health professionals who share the same passion for learning and giving in the dental health and airway space.

Myo Moves - Become a Patient: www.myo-moves.com


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At Airway Circle we offer a safe and supportive space for like-minded professionals to connect, collaborate and share information regarding airway-related issues and whole-body health.

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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello everyone and welcome. We are live with Dr Mariana Gajduk for the Breathing, the Beauty of Breathing podcast. Super excited to have everyone here. Write on the comment section if you guys have any questions. But before we start I would love Dr Mariana to introduce herself to everyone.

Speaker 2:

Hello, hello everybody. My name is Mariana. I'm from Ukraine. I'm a dentist Actually, I've been working in a dentist for more than 25 years and I'm very interested in myofunctional therapy. Lately, lately I work like endodontist, but mostly I'm a stomatology therapist. I don't know how to say this in english, correct? Well?

Speaker 1:

a somatognathic system. Some people say it a little bit different. Um, it's the study of the function of the muscles of the face right the breathing, chewing, swallowing. The brazilians, when they're talking about myofunctional therapy, they use that term a lot. Yeah, yeah, so you've seen that in the ukraine yeah, I live in ukraine originally.

Speaker 2:

I'm from ukraine and I stay in uk Ukraine nowadays because a lot of people started to leave Ukraine. I didn't do, because I can't imagine my life without Ukraine, and I'm still here.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. Well, we're going to have some questions back and forth. I got some questions from Instagram, so I'm opening my Instagram right now so I can pull those up for us. But let's go ahead and start. When did the interest in myofunctional therapy and all of this airway knowledge come about?

Speaker 2:

Not so long time, I can see, I can say, um, I started to be interested in my functional therapy when I got my grandson, so you can say, because I started to notice they started to breathe through mouth and it reminded me about myself. I had some problems in my childhood with a mouth breathing and in this way I got many problems with girl, with my health in the end, you know.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, I started to be interested in this because of the health of my grandsons you know, I tell everybody that usually people in this field, they have to have a personal story exactly. It's usually a child or a grandchild, or even ourselves, whenever we start recognizing that, oh my goodness, I know somebody with these issues. So that's why we're so passionate about sharing. We want everybody to to listen, because there's always somebody you're going to be able to help by having this information. If it's, it's going to be somebody else. So stick around and send us your questions that you guys may have. What are you able to do in the Ukraine whenever you see your patients? Have you changed at all the way that you screen and evaluate these patients? What are you looking for?

Speaker 2:

Of course I'm looking first of all for the person. First of all for the person how they speak, in what way they have, what the body position they have, because when they just appear in the room you know and they're going to sit. So I pay attention for everything, of course. And when patient in the chair, I start to ask them how they are feeling, what does it hurt them, how long they've been before in a dentistry chair, what the last visit was and many, many questions I can ask my patients. And of course, about the allergy, because usually we need to do the anesthesia and I'm asking about allergy very often, I can say constantly.

Speaker 1:

That's great. Do you have a screening questionnaire or tool that you use now with your patients? They didn't use before?

Speaker 2:

I don't have like list of questions but I can just look at the patients and understand sometimes what they need. You know, if they have pain, I ask them some kind of questions. If they need just some consultation, I can say I can ask something else or can ask more. They then, uh, it needs you know to understand the root of the problem especially for an endodontist.

Speaker 2:

You want to understand the root of the problem exactly exactly because patients in the pain, so we need to help them. How long they have pain what? How strong this pain, in what period of time they have pain after what? They have pain from the cold after, after just eating um, what else, whatever you know, so many questions, of course, in my mind when the patient in the dentist's chair Very good.

Speaker 1:

We have a very special person to the myofunctional therapy world listening to us live right now, and it's Sandra Coulson. Thank you, sandra. She said that she lectured in Ukraine in 2022. Very smart, she's saying so. Every Tuesday, or almost every Tuesday, I am going to be coming live on our Instagram on why your moves and all of these episodes are going to be recorded and added to our new podcast, which is called the Beauty of Breathing. So, if you guys can, after this live, run over to your preferred podcast platform if it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify and please follow the show. Give us some stars, make a comment. That's going to help us keep bringing this information out to the public. I have tons of questions that came in from um, from our listeners. However, we wanted to touch a little bit on what is myofunctional therapy correct?

Speaker 2:

yes, exactly that's why. Uh, just, I wanted to have a live live on the Instagram because I've got many English-speaking followers. Usually I give the information in Ukrainian, in my native language, but the part, the big part of the audience are English-speaking audience, so they are also interested in dental health and, as much as I can, I try to translate some information to share with them the knowledge, what I have about dental health. So that's why I was interested in this. So I decided to talk a little bit with my English speaking audience about my functional therapy. But like I don't used to work in this specialty, I would like to ask you this question, to tell a little bit my audience what is my functional therapy is? And I know that you were experienced it in this way and it's changed your life. So I would like you to tell my audience a little bit about your story and about my functional therapy in general. What is this? What for do we need my functional therapies? A hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

So myofunctional therapy is a therapeutic modality of treatment that most dental hygienists and speech pathologists are getting trained in. Uh, they have to do post um. You know, after they graduate. They have to do post you know, after they graduate. They have to do this training after universities, because it's not really taught in universities and it is not only a list of exercises for us to optimize the function of the orofacial muscles that are responsible for breathing, chewing, swallowing and oral rest posture.

Speaker 1:

A lot of people don't know this, but where you keep your lips and your tongue at rest and how you breathe at rest, that's called your oral rest posture and that's a function, and a very important function. So the simple fact that some people might keep their tongue low, their lips slightly parted or breathing in through their mouth, that is incorrect function. So that's where the myofunctional therapist comes in Myo for muscle functional, for function. That is our main goal. But we start by doing a really good, comprehensive evaluation of the muscles of course, the skeletal structure, the breathing, the airway, and based on all of that we work in conjunction with a dentist or an orthodontist and an ENT who's going to be able to treat the other areas that we cannot, but it's very important for us to be able to recognize when there is an issue with the airway. For example, if a patient has enlarged tonsils or adenoids. We can't see the tonsils. However, there are some signs and symptoms that may tell us that this patient will need to see an ENT to verify if there's, you know, correct airflow whenever they are breathing.

Speaker 1:

So during a myofunctional therapy appointment, after we're done with the initial evaluation, we will meet this patient weekly or biweekly and we give them exercises to do at home, just like physical therapy, just like occupational therapy or even speech pathology, when the practitioners will see these patients and they have to practice at home. So the most important part of this is that adherence. So the patient, understanding how important it is to keep up with these exercises, practice them every day. We also work a lot of on awareness, because this oral rest posture needs awareness. We need to think about where is our tongue, how are we breathing? These are things that we're not used to thinking about.

Speaker 2:

And you can stack on this idea all the time. It's annoying, quite annoying on the side, to think about it.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's very important for us to first be aware, then make sure the muscles are moving correctly. Then we start exercising them, so increase tone and then we increase strength and then we work on function. Let's teach these muscles how to work properly, because the function of the orofacial muscles are going to be responsible for keeping your craniofacial structure stable. You know the muscles are so important and they work in conjunction with the bones. You cannot just change the bone shape, like getting expansion or braces, if you're not addressing how the muscle is working. How many of you out there, you guys can tell me on Instagram how many of you have seen several patients relapse right After orthodontics? How many patients out there have had orthodontics more than once and you guys can tell me in the comments. I can see them. It's very, very common and it's because the muscle is not being addressed. We get used to dysfunctional breathing, we get used to the incorrect position. Even sometimes when a child gets super sick for like a month with an upper respiratory infection, they might, you know, it might become a habit of breathing and a myofunctional therapist is going to try to, you know, correct that habit and you can change the structure. But if you do not change the muscle, these patients are going to relax. You're not going to be able to grow to their full potential.

Speaker 1:

So, first of all, it's collaboration. We need to work with providers. Second, we need more people out there screening. More and more dentists, you know, even if you're an endodontist. Please, we need more people to start looking at this and recognizing when there's an issue. Why am I calling on all the dentists and dental hygienists to start screening? Because healthy patients come to you and most of these patients don't know they have an issue. You're not going to go to a speech pathologist unless you have a speech issue. You're not going to go to your private doctor unless you're sick or you have a big concern. But so many patients are walking around out there with an airway problem and orophageal muscle dysfunction and they have no idea that it's a problem. They have no idea it's affecting their development. They have no idea that it's impacting their quality of life. So we need more people to be able to recognize, screen and then refer these patients to the right providers yeah, exactly, you know.

Speaker 2:

Just I started to notice, uh, I I didn't use to treat children, I had a private clinic, but uh happened, some problems in my life and this clinic is destroyed because of the situation in my country and I moved to another place and I started to work in the clinic. So I have also children in my dentistry chair. I, of course, I treat the root canals of these patients, little patients and plenty of children's. Plenty of kids are with mouth breathing, you know, and it's like really like a habit, and they breathe. They not only open mouth when they speak, like in normal way, but when they stand up, and I just notice it. They all the time with open mouth, you know, and the face started to change. So I like this expression like function form. Function form, uh, follow form so people say oh sorry function create form.

Speaker 2:

Because it's not my native language, I start to yeah, yeah, function create form. So it's really very important and it's not, and it's visible. Parents doesn't recognize this because they see every single day, every moment, every minute, the children. But when doctors look from the side, they need to pay attention of parents how the children breathe right. So it's very important that's why I started to talk about it and share this with the audience to pay attention of this.

Speaker 1:

So what is your step? What are some of the things you're looking, uh, whenever you notice a child who is mouth breathing. What are some of your recommendations? What do you, what are you able to do in ukraine? Um, you know who do you refer them to? What do you? What do you recommend for your patients?

Speaker 2:

let's just go there uh, of course, I recommend to visit a doctor to look at the mouth deeper and to see what this with tonsils and and adenoids, uh, in the, in kids, with kid. So, um, then I recommend to visit orthodontist because in this way, they can change a little bit the bite right and, of course, we don't have the specialities, like certificate for this in ukraine, but I know some like specialists on Instagram platforms. They started to do my functional therapy. So, yeah, I recommend them to pay attention on this person, on this specialist, and to have consultation, because it's very important for the health and it can impact the health in the future, like I know for of myself. You know how it happened with myself. So I try to to to give them some recommendation to visit the doctor and the sooner the better um, how is it in ukraine working withTs?

Speaker 1:

Is it easy to create a good relationship with them, and do they often remove tonsils and adenoids?

Speaker 2:

You know, like I have a grandson and he also has inflammation all the time and sneezing. So when they took antibiotics, two grandsons and they took antibiotics, two grandsons and they have the same diagnosis, and in this way the doctor recommends to remove, to remove the adenoid, I don't know how we will see conservative treatment. I think it will not help because it started to change the habit of the breathing, you know, and it's really I see that it's really day by day it's improving and also it can impact the oroph or facile muscles. So very important to do this. The student is a bad. How old is your grandson? Uh, the older is five years and the younger two and half oh, very good.

Speaker 1:

And the reason why I ask is because many times, many countries, they will not remove tonsils and adenoids. They're really against it, and then, while in some other countries it's like almost routine, let's just go ahead and get everything out. I have a wonderful friend, dr JJ. He's one of the best ENTs in the world. He's in Malaysia and the first thing that he does when these kids come to him, one is for expansion, palatal expansion, and also they talk about removing sugar, processed foods, dairy gluten.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know about it. Yeah, I hear it.

Speaker 1:

We don't really know. You know we get this question all the time, but what causes enlarged adenoids? I feel like it's a conjunction of things. I don't think it's only one thing. It's not mouth breathing that's going to cause your tonsils or adenoids to be enlarged. I feel like they aggravate them. But your body is fighting something and nowadays we're exposed to so much. You know we're exposed to cleaning products and stuff that we put in our skin and perfume and all of these fragrances, the plug-ins and the sprays and anything they can think of. We're being exposed way more. Our bodies are not used to this. You know, back in the day we didn't have this number of chemicals that our body was getting exposed to. So I do believe that plays a huge part on the reason why we now have way more enlarged tonsils and adenoids. So it's not one thing, but there is the importance of working in conjunction with other professionals, so everybody can take a look and we can find out exactly what could help that patient.

Speaker 1:

We have a question that just came in on Instagram and somebody said are there exercises that you can practice daily to change your bite without the orthodontist? So a lot of people in this field say follow forms, follow function and function follows form. Meaning form is your skeletal structure, the way that you look is. The form follows function. So depending on the function chewing, breathing, swallowing or rest posture it can change your skeletal structure. I believe that that's true when a child is growing and developing. We do see minimal changes in adults. However, I don't think that you can change the skeletal structure that much by fixing muscle or just by doing muscle exercises.

Speaker 1:

Do I believe that it can improve minimally? Yes, however, most of these patients don't need just teeth movement. Especially if you have a nasal breathing issue, if it's hard for you to breathe through your nose, you need a skeletal most times. If the soft tissue has, you know, been ruled out a lot of times, you need a skeletal change. So you would need an expander that's a little bit faster, so an rpe or something that's going to move a little bit faster, to open the suture, so the maxillary bone, actually two bones that have a suture in the middle. You need to open that suture to affect the nose, because the maxillary bone is also. Then everything is the same. Right roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose, um, so just exercises won't really change much have I seen teeth move with my functional therapy alone? A hundred hundred percent. But most of the time, is it enough? It's usually not enough because most of these patients coming to us need a little extra help.

Speaker 1:

And then there I talked about follow forms function. And then we have function follows form. So, depending on what your skeletal structure looks like, it's how you're going to function. So your breathing has to do with you maybe having a very long face because you develop that way right. Several different reasons. But those people are more likely to be mouth breathers. Or chewing and swallowing is going to look slightly different, depending on what your skeletal structure looks like. So they're very closely related form and function. And it's that question chicken or the egg, which one comes first? I feel like they both affect each other in different ways. But yes, exercises alone are not enough. We got to work with a team. I always say my functional therapy works because it's not done alone. We have another question Should I go there?

Speaker 1:

Yeah sure and myofunctional therapy help with mandibular entrapment. Do you want to talk about the mandible being stuck behind the maxilla, or should I? Okay, I will. So your mandible is your lower jawbone. Maxilla goes supposed to go in front of the mandible slightly. So a lot of times we notice patients with that overbite. An overbite means I know that if this is on the podcast you guys are not going to be able to see it, but if you guys are on Instagram or YouTube you can see it. So if the upper teeth are covering too much of the lower teeth, that's called an overbite, meaning you can barely see the lower teeth. You're supposed to see at least half of the lower teeth. So if you have an overbite, a lot of times that mandible is trapped behind the maxilla. If you look at a lot of kids with an overbite, you look at their side profile. Their mandible is too far back. How do you bring that mandible forward? A lot of times you just have to open the bite a little bit.

Speaker 1:

Some dentists will do something called planus tracts, where they add this composite material to the occlusal surfaces, the chewing surfaces of the teeth, and it opens up the bite a little bit as soon as you open up that bite, the mandible can come forward and grow forward. Sometimes you need an appliance, you need expansion and whenever they expand they push the teeth out of the way also as they're expanding and the mandible can come forward. So MARPI is transverse expansion mainly, which is lateral sideways. So if somebody's super narrow, a MARPI is going to help open up that suture, expand the maxilla sideways. However, the Marpe does also bring the maxilla forward, but only a couple of millimeters.

Speaker 1:

I noticed that with myself. I feel like I came forward way more than two millimeters, but it will help. I do believe that my lower jaw did come forward after the Marpe. I had a tongue tie release first, which we don't usually recommend, but I knew I was already going to get expansion done. So I decided to go ahead and get my tongue tie release and then I had Marpe. I still have it in my mouth. I'm going to get it taken out, probably in a month. I'm still going through my Invisalign, but I do believe the Marpe. Myofunctional therapy can help slightly with mandibular entrapment, but I would not expect more than one or two millimeters. If this is a person that has a very small airway that we can see on a CBCT. If the CBCT was taken correctly, if this person has sleep apnea, has a very hard time breathing at night, then they are most likely still going to need maxillary and mandibular advancement surgery. We call it MMA.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm, amazing. So I had this problem also. I still have. Yes, I changed it a little bit because of the veneers. You know, like this I don't know how to say this in English, so I have protrusia in Latin. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay, teeth were sticking out the top ones yes, yes, so a little bit changed with veneers because I had preparation a little bit changed the bite, but my upper jaw is still small.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry, my upper jaw is still small, you know, it didn't grow with it because I used to breathe in my childhood through the mouth all the time and I had, I was sleeping, you know, like this and my and my upper jaw was all the time like back and it's a period so. But in my 50 I don't want to change it's, it's need to surgical, you know, per operation. Uh, I don't want to change something like uh, it doesn't affect my health now, it doesn't bother me to leave like cosmetic cosmetics, you know problems, but I just wanted to prevent this in my grandson, the same problems. That's why I started to pay attention to this myofunctional therapy to help my grandsons and I wanted to ask you if we are going to avoid the sugar and this man, sugar and gluten. Can it help somehow? What did you hear about this? Because I don't know in English, any information.

Speaker 1:

So we just went last weekend to an amazing conference in New York called PENNY. An amazing conference in New York called Penny. It's pediatric, pediatric and adult airway network of New York and it's thrown by Dr Steve Lambert, who is incredible, and the keynote speaker was Dr Robert Lustig. He is a pediatric neuro endocrinologist and all he spoke about guys was sugar. By the way a little plug, if you guys are an Airway Circle member, everything that I recorded is in our Facebook group for members only. So if you're an Airway Circle member, join us over there and you're going to be able to see a little bit about what he spoke. But I do have to share because it just came to my mind now One of the things that he said it's in order for cortical bone to grow, you need pressure and that is the importance of tongue position. So it was really exciting to me. Can you not hear anymore? It was really exciting to me to see a pediatric endocrinologist talking about tongue position, the importance for craniofacial growth, but he spoke a lot about sugar.

Speaker 1:

I can't hear you. You can't hear me anymore. Nothing changed over here. I keep trying to mess with it over there. You guys, let us know if you can still hear us. Hey, ana, uh-oh, she left. I'll keep talking, you guys. So Dr Lustig kept talking about the different types of sugar out there, right? So he did say that fructose is the worst. So if you guys see fructose there, she is, is it back? Can you hear me? No, I don't hear. Especially corn syrup, take it out, take it out, take your earwax out.

Speaker 1:

Yes, unplug it. Is it going to get better? Turn the volume on. Yeah, increase your volume. Sorry guys, and yeah, you guys can hear me. Good, I'm not sure where hers is connected. April said so happy to be learning all about this. I don't know. I can hear you fine, do you hear me? I?

Speaker 2:

don't know. I can hear you. Fine, do you hear me? I don't hear you at all. I don't know what happened. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

All right, but you guys, sugar, sugar is the worst. He was connecting it to cancer. He was connecting it to so much, so many other things. Uh, he was such a wonderful lecturer. He's written several books about four books on fat and on sugar. Um, so take a look, uh, to find out a little bit more about his research. Maya levita said so happy that they are bringing more of this knowledge to ukraine. She, take a look to find out a little bit more about his research. Maya Levita said so happy that they're bringing more of this knowledge to Ukraine. She should definitely connect with Dr Marianne Evans. We love Dr Marianne Evans a hundred percent, but that's it.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I have several other questions that you guys sent me, but I think it's more specific to me, so I am going to answer them on my Instagram. If you guys are not following my own moves, please, um, give us a follow. Share with your friends, share these lives with your friends. They are free and they're out there for us to to learn more with each other. And also, if you're looking for a provider and it's any provider in airway, so you may be looking for a provider, and it's any provider in airway, so you may be looking for a dentist, an orthodontist, an ENT, a myofunctional therapist, speech pathologist, occupational therapist, chiropractor? Go to wwwairwaycirclecom slash directory. You can search by adding your location. Make sure to increase the mileage and it's going to show several professionals, your location, make sure to increase the mileage and it's going to show several professionals around you. Make sure to look for the little extra seal that it shows that they are an Area Circle member, because you know, if they are an Area Circle member, we're an online study club and we meet every Thursday night where we have this incredible lectures from all different world-renowned professionals. So you know they, if they remember, they're learning more and more and more.

Speaker 1:

But anyways, I don't see her coming back. Guys, this has been a wonderful meeting with you. Guys, we're getting a message. He has limited sugar and nervous system regulation 100. It is crazy. You know how things are changing. We keep getting, uh, you know these questions well, our tongue tie is more of a thing now. Has this always been an issue? And the truth is that, yes, everything is changing. You know, we're eating differently, we're not exercising much. I mean, everything has changed the way that we, that we live. You know, compared to many years ago, we used to be so much healthier, so we have to learn and keep researching.

Speaker 2:

You know what are other ways for us to live a healthier and better life? Let's see. Can you hear now? Yes, I can hear you. I decided to leave and then again to join you. Sorry, sorry, I don't know what happened. You were talking so nice, but I hear nothing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we'll cut that part off.

Speaker 2:

I will hear it when recording, I think.

Speaker 1:

Alrighty, everybody. Well, we have made our time. I have a meeting right now to go to. I'm running from one thing to another, but thank you so much, dr Mariana, for joining us tonight or today. It's tonight for you, I think it's 8 pm.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much that your time. I had a blast and it was amazing time If I didn't hear something. I would love to hear it in the recording, Okay, so if you will be able to send me the this link, I appreciate this.

Speaker 1:

It's right now on YouTube. It's right now on Facebook on Mayo moves page on Facebook. You guys can look it up. I'll share. On Aerie Circle, we also have a Facebook group that's called Aerie Circle Patients. So if you'd like to ask any questions, we have several parents who are going through the same issues that you might be facing, and adults also over there, and we have several professionals that are all there to just give their time and they kind of help, guide you in the right direction, just give you some light if you're having trouble, you know, finding out exactly what your next step is. So air recycle patients join us over there and it was so wonderful. Can you, before we go really quickly, can you you tell everybody how do they find you, either your website, where you're located in the Ukraine?

Speaker 2:

my Instagram from what I usually go live and share the information. It's called Mariana Dental and the same I have there on telegram their link and I have a group on telegram where in this group I speak with the audience also when we contact to each other, and where I share also some information and we can chat with each other on the telegram group. So welcome guys.

Speaker 1:

If you send me those links, I'll also put them in the show notes. All right, thank you everybody for being here. Thanks for listening to us. Make sure you share, share, share, follow, follow, follow, send it to your friends. So more people.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Have a nice day, thank you. Thank you for your time. Bye, bye, of course. Bye everybody.

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